Big school versus small school debate

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93Bulldog
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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

ATHENS TITLES RESULTS SINCE JOINING THE TVC

Football
2008 - 4th
2009 - 1st (tied)
2010 - 3rd
2011 - 1st

Volleyball
2008 - 2nd
2009 - 1st (tied)
2010 - 2nd
2011 - 1st

Boys basketball
2009 - 4th
2010 - 1st
2011 - 4th

Girls basketball
2009 - 4th
2010 - 2nd
2011 - 2nd

Baseball
2009 - 1st
2010 - 1st
2011 - 2nd

Softball
2009 - 5th
2010 - 1st
2011 - 4th

Out of the three major sports boys/girls Athens has won or shared 8 league titles out of 20! Take away baseball/softball, which has been strong at Athens for years no matter what league it is in, the Bulldogs would only have 5 titles.

That is hardly 'domination.'

And you owe me one Bish - now you don't have to sit inside McAfee Gymnasium and count the banners ... :mrgreen:

BTW - Little 'ol Alexander, they have taken home 6 titles.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

ON THE GRIDIRON: NELSONVILLE-YORK HAS BEATEN ATHENS 18-OUT-OF-THE-LAST-21 GAMES

21 YEARS OF RESEARCH PROVIDING PROOF THAT THE BIG SCHOOL DOESN'T ALWAYS WIN!!!!!

TVC OBSERVATIONS, Since comparing other teams in other parts of the state is frowned upon:

Waterford & Eastern are two of the smallest schools in the Hocking Division - yet have dominated the girls sports the last 5 years.
Alexander is the 2nd smallest TVC-Ohio school, but have cleaned house in terms of volleyball and girls basketball.
Athens has 297 boys, Vinton County has 271 - yet Vinton County has never been critisized for not winning football titles? Nor are they expected because of size.
Federal Hocking is the biggest TVC-Hocking school (138 boys), yet Trimble (and or Wahama now) have absolutly dominated the gridiron.
Nelsonville-York is the smallest TVC-Oho school - but how many football titles do they own? I mean, they have won it like every year for so long I can't even remember who challenged them before Athens joined the league.

Bottom line: Its the 'smaller or even smallest' schools in each division that are winning titles or are expected to win titles - not the bigger schools


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Bishtakes
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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Bishtakes »

While I must give you thanks for doing SOME of my research, you omitted the sports that really make the difference in terms of numbers. Wrestling, Golf, Cross Country and the big one, Track.

In my post, I left out football as I stated that there is not much disparity.

Wrestling for example...Athens wins the league last year but NY sent 6 to the state tourney. The reason we didn't win the league is because we could not fill all the weight classes. Can we agree that the numbers affected our team?

While this is turning into a "urinating" match, I do want to give kudos to your time and efforts in recognizing athletes and schools with stats, photos and information.

With that said, I think we can agree to disagree and I plan on discussing HS sports with you in the future.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Steely Dan »

Hey Bish - If you ever get that IM from Sarah Palin, let me know. I'd really like to hear that story.......... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Bishtakes »

funny story is this...when I played for the Anchorage Glacier Pilots in the Summer of 1987, I had a couple of dates with a girl named Sarah that was a sports reporter for the local news. Just look at Palin's profile. While I can't remember her last name, I will call her Sarah Palin and that is my story and I'm sticking to it...she still hasn't IM'd me so I must have left a bad impression. Darn it, i could be living in Wasilla right now...LOL


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

Bishtakes wrote:While I must give you thanks for doing SOME of my research, you omitted the sports that really make the difference in terms of numbers. Wrestling, Golf, Cross Country and the big one, Track.

In my post, I left out football as I stated that there is not much disparity.

Wrestling for example...Athens wins the league last year but NY sent 6 to the state tourney. The reason we didn't win the league is because we could not fill all the weight classes. Can we agree that the numbers affected our team?

While this is turning into a "urinating" match, I do want to give kudos to your time and efforts in recognizing athletes and schools with stats, photos and information.

With that said, I think we can agree to disagree and I plan on discussing HS sports with you in the future.
That is a very good point on the wrestling/track ... My eyes are always fixated on the 3 major boys/girls sports ... I hope in the future to add those to the TVC web site, and then I will probably get a better understanding of the numbers game when it comes to the smaller athletic teams.

Oh yea - a 'urinating match' ... lol ... I don't think so ... Your definitly one of the coolest Buckeyes around man - I was just throwing out some info/ideas for fun since since the season is over ... (You would be one of the my favorite Buckeyes; but I have a few ex-girlfriends from Nelsonville that are, well, lets face it - a tad bit better looking.)


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Bighitsinc »

So I guess that since school size has little to do with anything Athens must be scheduling D1 opponents now!!!


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by eagles73Taylor »

School size is just one of the factors, others include socio economics, look at Northwest in Scioto County. They are the biggest school in the SOC II, yet the get handed their lunch in football but hold their own in other sports. Northwest, like Vinton is spread out and the area is very poor. While money doesnt equate to athletic success, lack of is detrimental to a players abilities. Poorer people cannot on average, or do not want to send their kids to camps or extra activities to make their athlete better. It isnt always true, but percentage does play out.

Another factor is community support. If the community is behind a program or school it will do better. Unfortunately this is somewhat tied to socio economics as well.

Football, wrestling and track are numbers sports. In football your top 2 or 3 kids might be as good as the other teams top 3, but when you start going down the depth chart that is where good teams seperate.

I have argued for years that schools should not be matched up purely on numbers alone. There are so many other factors that play a part, unfortunately that formula hasnt been found yet.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

BIGHITSINC wrote:So I guess that since school size has little to do with anything Athens must be scheduling D1 opponents now!!!
Athens thought playing Jackson would be more of a challenge than Parkersburg South - so the Bulldogs have added them to the schedule instead.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by GAHS83 »

You can always cite examples where a rule doesn't hold true. There are programs that do wonders with smaller numbers due to outstanding coaching. That being said, in most situations, bigger student populations will result in larger numbers of quality athletes adding better depth and better competition.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by GAHS83 »

You can always cite examples where a rule doesn't hold true. There are programs that do wonders with smaller numbers due to outstanding coaching. That being said, in most situations, bigger student populations will result in larger numbers of quality athletes adding better depth and better competition.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Heavy D »

One factor no one is mentioning is coaching. Quality coaching can many times over come the number mismatch. A coach who has developed a solid program throughout his system 7-12, and even youth league, at a small school can compete with larger schools that have lesser coaches. Shear numbers does not guarantee success every season. But over several seasons if the larger school is losing to the smaller school you have to start looking at the coach. And it is not just game time coaching. It is a year round process that includes but is not limited to getting players involved, and developing those players and asst coaches. Athens has the numbers out now. With 70-80+ players in grades 9-12 they should start to dominate the league in football for a few years. I doubt any other school in the league has anywhere close to those numbers. Probably less than 60 players on the closest team. If Athens does not start to dominate, then something is amiss and I would first look at coaching. You will never convince me that Nelsonville just happens to have better football players every year than all the other teams in the TVC Ohio. That is crazy to think that way. It runs much deeper than that, and a huge part of it is that a program has been developed over the years. That all goes back to coaching. That is why you can say you would take Ironton over Marietta, even though Ironton is a smaller school. Put Lutz at Marietta for 30+ years, put the revolving door of coaches, that Marietta has had in place, at Ironton over those same 30, and you can bet Ironton would want no part of them.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Buckeye Backer »

I would expect an Athens grad to have no less of an opinion. There are many good arguments that can be had on a wide range or subjects in relation to football, this just isn't one of them. It is merely a distraction used to avoid the discussion of Athens hiding in the TVC. It can be twisted and turned about many ways using these or those numbers, but to say that the size of a school doesn't matter (on the macro, not the micro level) is just delusional. Athens simply lacks the talent to compete with similarly sized schools in athletics, so they chose to go to a league with small, rural, poor schools where they could make themselves look tough and develop a false sense of accomplishment. That's why they just don't get much respect.

Some of the things brought up by others are also important. Coaching is a very important part. Coach Adams obviously did a good job with the talent he had this year, but Coach of the Year? Not a chance. Some of those other D3 schools who play an actual tough schedule must be puking in their own mouths. It's just very difficult to assess his coaching when they schedule down.

Support of the team is also very important. Teams like NY and Trimble have rabid fan support no matter what their record. It doesn't matter if NY is 10-0 or 6-4, our stadium is always standing room only. We all wear our colors proudly regardless of the records. Yes, we are very vocal during after both wins and losses, but that's because we care. Athens on the other hand, can't even totally fill their stadium for a battle of 9-0 teams even with those that have jumped on the bandwagon since they moved to a small school league. Yes, Athens side looked filled, but if you looked closer there was a lot of brown, white and orange in those cold, wet seats. Nevermind prior to them joining the TVC, when, minus the families of the players and band, the stadium was virtually empty.

For some reason, I think the OHSAA also believes there is a difference. Hence the divisions. What I would like to see is the cutoff levels for the different divisions not being announced until after the student count. If I recall correctly, a couple of years ago Athens was something like 13 over the limit which put them into D2. I know that most of us at NY were sure what the next year's result were going to be and lo and behold, they moved to D3. The difference is very important in that even if they went 10-0 in the TVC as a D2 team, they would never make the playoffs. As a D3 team, they can.

I'm encouraged that they have added Jackson to their schedule next year. But since they do not feel that divisions are important, let's see them add some D1 playoff teams to their non-league schedule. Then they may garner true respect and not the inflated bravado of playing in the TVC.

p.s. - Oh and thanks 93 for saving me from mentioning it: ON THE GRIDIRON: NELSONVILLE-YORK HAS BEATEN ATHENS 18-OUT-OF-THE-LAST-21 GAMES. :)


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by caglewis »

I think OHIO'S 6 division [as opposed to 3 or 4] setup is just fine. School teams can schedule/play either up or down during the regular season, and ALL opponents count [even out-of-state] for points but the playoffs will be against teams/towns more closely size connected.
The "middle-sized" DIV 4 and DIV 3 Games have been among the most competitive so far.
More smaller school players have to play both ways, so stamina and training preparation have a greater impact than big schools with more potential players who can rest up between offense and defense. Pitting a very small school against a huge school with double the number of players and calling that a "Championship Competition" is ridiculous. I like OHSAA's system - divided into 6 divisions more closely defined by size rather than separating public and private.
Many think it's a fun job to ridicule OHSAA, but I think they do a pretty good job of leveling the field and evening things out all across the board and including ALL sports - not just the "big money" producing ones - and using THAT money to support and contribute to all the others.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Daniel Larusso »

Buckeye Backer wrote:I would expect an Athens grad to have no less of an opinion. There are many good arguments that can be had on a wide range or subjects in relation to football, this just isn't one of them. It is merely a distraction used to avoid the discussion of Athens hiding in the TVC. It can be twisted and turned about many ways using these or those numbers, but to say that the size of a school doesn't matter (on the macro, not the micro level) is just delusional. Athens simply lacks the talent to compete with similarly sized schools in athletics, so they chose to go to a league with small, rural, poor schools where they could make themselves look tough and develop a false sense of accomplishment. That's why they just don't get much respect.

Some of the things brought up by others are also important. Coaching is a very important part. Coach Adams obviously did a good job with the talent he had this year, but Coach of the Year? Not a chance. Some of those other D3 schools who play an actual tough schedule must be puking in their own mouths. It's just very difficult to assess his coaching when they schedule down.

Support of the team is also very important. Teams like NY and Trimble have rabid fan support no matter what their record. It doesn't matter if NY is 10-0 or 6-4, our stadium is always standing room only. We all wear our colors proudly regardless of the records. Yes, we are very vocal during after both wins and losses, but that's because we care. Athens on the other hand, can't even totally fill their stadium for a battle of 9-0 teams even with those that have jumped on the bandwagon since they moved to a small school league. Yes, Athens side looked filled, but if you looked closer there was a lot of brown, white and orange in those cold, wet seats. Nevermind prior to them joining the TVC, when, minus the families of the players and band, the stadium was virtually empty.

For some reason, I think the OHSAA also believes there is a difference. Hence the divisions. What I would like to see is the cutoff levels for the different divisions not being announced until after the student count. If I recall correctly, a couple of years ago Athens was something like 13 over the limit which put them into D2. I know that most of us at NY were sure what the next year's result were going to be and lo and behold, they moved to D3. The difference is very important in that even if they went 10-0 in the TVC as a D2 team, they would never make the playoffs. As a D3 team, they can.

I'm encouraged that they have added Jackson to their schedule next year. But since they do not feel that divisions are important, let's see them add some D1 playoff teams to their non-league schedule. Then they may garner true respect and not the inflated bravado of playing in the TVC.

p.s. - Oh and thanks 93 for saving me from mentioning it: ON THE GRIDIRON: NELSONVILLE-YORK HAS BEATEN ATHENS 18-OUT-OF-THE-LAST-21 GAMES. :)
Great Post! Thank you for not sugar coating it, and keeping it real.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Ontheriver »

Buckeye Backer wrote:I would expect an Athens grad to have no less of an opinion. There are many good arguments that can be had on a wide range or subjects in relation to football, this just isn't one of them. It is merely a distraction used to avoid the discussion of Athens hiding in the TVC. It can be twisted and turned about many ways using these or those numbers, but to say that the size of a school doesn't matter (on the macro, not the micro level) is just delusional. Athens simply lacks the talent to compete with similarly sized schools in athletics, so they chose to go to a league with small, rural, poor schools where they could make themselves look tough and develop a false sense of accomplishment. That's why they just don't get much respect.

Some of the things brought up by others are also important. Coaching is a very important part. Coach Adams obviously did a good job with the talent he had this year, but Coach of the Year? Not a chance. Some of those other D3 schools who play an actual tough schedule must be puking in their own mouths. It's just very difficult to assess his coaching when they schedule down.

Support of the team is also very important. Teams like NY and Trimble have rabid fan support no matter what their record. It doesn't matter if NY is 10-0 or 6-4, our stadium is always standing room only. We all wear our colors proudly regardless of the records. Yes, we are very vocal during after both wins and losses, but that's because we care. Athens on the other hand, can't even totally fill their stadium for a battle of 9-0 teams even with those that have jumped on the bandwagon since they moved to a small school league. Yes, Athens side looked filled, but if you looked closer there was a lot of brown, white and orange in those cold, wet seats. Nevermind prior to them joining the TVC, when, minus the families of the players and band, the stadium was virtually empty.

For some reason, I think the OHSAA also believes there is a difference. Hence the divisions. What I would like to see is the cutoff levels for the different divisions not being announced until after the student count. If I recall correctly, a couple of years ago Athens was something like 13 over the limit which put them into D2. I know that most of us at NY were sure what the next year's result were going to be and lo and behold, they moved to D3. The difference is very important in that even if they went 10-0 in the TVC as a D2 team, they would never make the playoffs. As a D3 team, they can.

I'm encouraged that they have added Jackson to their schedule next year. But since they do not feel that divisions are important, let's see them add some D1 playoff teams to their non-league schedule. Then they may garner true respect and not the inflated bravado of playing in the TVC.

p.s. - Oh and thanks 93 for saving me from mentioning it: ON THE GRIDIRON: NELSONVILLE-YORK HAS BEATEN ATHENS 18-OUT-OF-THE-LAST-21 GAMES. :)
WOW Buckeye Backer , you hit the nail on the head here. I couldnt agree more.

Just look at what happened in D3 region 12, way out of there league, #2 seed in that Region ahead of Alder, Big time over rated as you were right Alder probably Puked as they were a #3 seed and they beat Jackson the 7th seed as bad as Jackson beat Athens.

Also Jackson had way more fans there than Athens. It was actually like a home game for Jackson.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

I guess Vinton County is just 'hiding out' in the TVC as well eh?

Jackson had way more fans than Athens? really? The home stands we're completely filled - absolutly nowhere to sit ... There were fans to the left on the rail all the way past the concession stand.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

One thing people don't do is look at other leagues in southeastern Ohio too see that differences in numbers lie everywhere! Its impossible to have a league that is perect in size amongst all the teams.

The difference in numbers in the TVC Ohio is actually closer than what you see in the SEOAL - yet, Athens is considered 'hiding out' although Vinton County is almost the exact same size. (Athens 297 boys; Vinton County 271 boys)

IN THE SEOAL you have LOGAN (478 boys) - but also have PORTSMOUTH (179 boys) = a difference of 299 boys!!!! That is way more than the difference between the TVC Ohio biggest & smallest, which is only 146. Athens has 297, Nelsonville-York has 146.

You don't even have to go to the top/bottom in the SEOAL ... Logan has 220 more boys than GALLIA ACADEMY.

The argument is always geared toward Athens for some reason - why is their never any talk of the LARGE disparity in numbers in the SEOAL? The TVC-Ohio is much closer in numbers from top-to-bottom than in the SEOAL.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by 93Bulldog »

TVC-OHIO

Athens - 297 boys
Vinton County - 271
Meigs - 209
Wellston - 188
Alexander - 171
Nelsonville-York - 151

SEOAL

Logan - 478
Warren - 356
Chillicothe - 339
Jackson - 295
Gallia Academy - 258
Portsmouth - 179

* The TVC-Ohio has its top 4 teams within 109 boys of each other (ATHENS, VC, MEIGS, WELLSTON)
* The SEOAL has 0. There is a difference of 122 in just 1st and 2nd.


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Re: Big school versus small school debate

Post by Daniel Larusso »

93Bulldog wrote:TVC-OHIO

Athens - 297 boys
Vinton County - 271
Meigs - 209
Wellston - 188
Alexander - 171
Nelsonville-York - 151

SEOAL

Logan - 478
Warren - 356
Chillicothe - 339
Jackson - 295
Gallia Academy - 258
Portsmouth - 179

* The TVC-Ohio has its top 4 teams within 109 boys of each other (ATHENS, VC, MEIGS, WELLSTON)
* The SEOAL has 0. There is a difference of 122 in just 1st and 2nd.
Here are some more numbers from Wikipedia that you can't twist to satisfy your agenda.

TVC
Athens, OH pop. 23,832
McArthur, OH pop. 1,888
Pomeroy, OH pop. 1,966
Wellston, OH pop. 6,078
Albany, OH pop. 808
Nelsonville, OH pop. 5,230

SEOAL
Logan, OH pop. 6,704
Vincent, OH pop. unincorporated community
Chillicothe, OH pop. 22,296
Jackson, OH pop. 6,184
Gallipolis, OH pop. 3,641
Portsmouth, OH pop. 20,226

Former SEOAL Members
Marietta, OH pop. 14,085
Ironton, OH pop. 11,129


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